These are the people that make the Turing test invalid, youd think they were the chatbot. Your model of too much of a good thing seems to, to my non-doctor, non-expert mind, fit perfectly. Generally high end career civil servants and similar. From a certain perspective, it merges with normal. And if you do have a more challenging child, youll have more energy to deal with it as a younger parent. But then the answer to your question becomes so obvious that its hardly worth asking in the first place; there are countless people who are highly intelligent without suffering from any kind of psychological condition or personality disorder or mental/emotional instability. But there is a critical point in the system, the feedback point, after which more isnt just too much of a good thing the behavior of the system changes qualitatively and the whole thing breaks down. She was born with the cord around her neck, and we had respiratory specialists on hand to assist. https://medicine.uiowa.edu/psychiatry/content/ui-research-suggests-huntingtons-disease-gene-also-vital-human-development-and-intelligence. FWIW, Ive only ever heard biological females apply the term genderqueer to themselves. I think this is connected to gifted people tend to be good at finding creative solutions to things rather than the most obvious ones, which in the case of weird walking or talking styles can look like autistic behavior. I am a highly educated (PhD) male parent of a son with autism (aged 17 so in high school), who is in a Special Education class, so I fit the phenotype described here. (And maybe theres some kind of subtype of autism > size of correlation thing happening, too. My oldest child, a boy, is very high functioning. Its highly unlikely for someone with either of those conditions to become the Director of the FBI. Are you sure any of that is a real thing? Normal includes insecurities, anxieties, caring what other people think. ABA research, like autism research in general, suffers from an appalling lack of rigor. We just rarely see them because they dont hang out with us losers. I never liked that. There are plenty of incredibly smart and simultaneously charismatic people out there. Autism, and Neurodiversity. (Or did, 20+ years ago when I last took an IQ test.) Dammit, I was nodding along until you threw in sports-watching. Thus it is perhaps unsurprising that our data suggests that the contribution of common variants may be more prominent in high-functioning ASD cases such as Aspergers syndrome. They find that even autistic people without de novo mutations have lower-than-average IQ. Note that due to conflict of interest she doesn't treat people in the NYC rationalist social scene. There are different levels of the concept we call perfect pitch. Struggling to describe this. Except that from the sound of it, the IQ/autism risk genes are. Highly intelligent people are likely to have different interests, read and talk about different things, than average peopledoes that make them not normal? Increased parental age correlates with autism risk, AIUI. GS-14 speaking, and Im not exactly normal either. Why conflate diagnosed with autism with has autism? too many CAG repeats and the area destabilizes and you get runaway anticipation that wipes out later generations of your family. Sure, most of them. Theres no reason to assume that every intelligence-enhancing trait necessarily increases weirdness. And so, wed expect that not every person blessed with a strong combination of intelligence-enhancing traits is going to have an excess of weirdness that they have to brute-force emulate their way around. Precision of it? IQb medium genetic load : high intelligence, autistic highly functional autist or autistic tendencies, strongly tenchnically inclined About 13% of autistic children (in this sample from whatever social stratum they took their sample from) have fathers who are engineers, compared to only 5% of a group of (presumably well-matched?) Ethics and effectiveness of ABA Therapy for Autism She pointed out that there are a couple widely-used kinds of IQ test. Dunno, but you dont need to know the exact structure of the genotype to phenotype map to check whether the assumption is empirically correct. This would explain low-functioning autism from de novo mutations or obstetric trauma (the foundation is so weak that it fails no matter how short the tower is). Yes, the biggest gains from any given exercise are to performing that specific exercise, but gaining strength that way still allows you to do other mostly unrelated motions that use the same muscle group that you couldnt have done without those exercises. Go up a level and they can tell you the pitch of your hair dryer. (This sounds harsh, but I want a child at least as normal as I am). I honestly wouldnt be surprised if he was a rationalist himself. The reason seems to be that there is great overlap in symptoms, although there is great diversity in symptoms. Yes, of course. We were grouped with autistic including low functioning autistics. How exactly are you defining normal? More, by that point your identity probably includes significant aspects which make the idea of becoming normal and predictable less personally palatable. It is often said that male IQ has the same mean as female IQ but greater variance, so you find more men in both tails of the IQ distribution. If your definition of weirdness includes beliefs and interests, then almost by definition anyone whose underlying cognition is unusually effective or ineffective will be weird. Thus, I cant think of anyone whos very intelligent and not weird ceases to be meaningful. Crespi suggests that autism is marked by an imbalance between P (as the tower) and V + R (as the foundation). I dont have time to go through all the links this morning but wanted to add some more studies. You tell them that the study that tried to address that question suggests that they are between one point one and one point two times as likely; in other words, at least 83-90% of their chance to have autistic children is baseline. AUCHAN RETAIL INTERNATIONAL - Dun & Bradstreet Ive looked into this topic myself, not professionally or anything-just as an interested lay researcher with a science/statistics background- and had a less well-articulated formulation of the tower vs. foundation model in mind for awhile, too. Guys autism is not a thing. That said, I too doubt the extreme male brain hypothesis in a general sense, although it may be true in a more limited sense (where autism consists of more masculine features for certain parts of the brain, but not all of them). Good clarifying question. This isn't the fun "really likes trains a lot" kind of autism but the "will scream for an hour if I point out a mistake on his math homework" kind and the "I can't hire a babysitter because they've all . people that are 30% autistic have average IQ X. We start with a presentation of a summary of the article, and then discuss in a friendly atmosphere. If this is good, then by definition, more at the margin will be better. It turns out that giftedness can be quite a burden for children and teenagers, as not many of their peers can relate to them and vice versa. could equally be applied to people who arent especially intelligent. Its 100% true. Another, potentially related, possibility is that we are disproportionately likely to diagnose white kids with autism rather than other forms of mental disability. My current boss. Brasserie Cambier - Croix, Hauts-de-France - Untappd I have many fewer data points on low functioning autistic people, who I have mostly met through church. He used to claim that he had an advantage in the ring because his muscle was all-natural, which made him stronger than people who got equally buff from working out. Your argument also seems tautological to an extent; if youre defining normal as someone who thinks like a normal person, thats basically the equivalent of describing an object as being shaped like itself. Trump = President Camacho, the contemporary media is just as idiotic as the media in that movie, etc. unsurprisingly, ID is inversely correlated with IQ; ADHD also shows a strong inverse correlation with IQ. While their exact numbers are doubtful, I think the overall finding that common familial genes are much more important than rare de novo mutations survives and is important. However, history doesnt always predict the future. Non-genetic factors. I find it absolutely bizarre that the intelligence of kids who dont fit in is often ignored. Smart people who can manage things by themselves and mask the effects of their autism from others dont get diagnosed, because among other things they dont want to see a psychiatrist and can figure out how to stop people from forcing them to; they can also know the correct answer to psychiatric interviews and can figure out that the things currently bothering them are less likely to continue if they provide the correct answers. They would more easily get high IQ amongst Aspies, whom I dont consider Autistic. My 3rd child, a girl, is much lower functioning. Also, the Gardner paper has analyzed autistic patients fathers by subtype of intelligence, and there is a nonsignificant but pretty suggestive tendency for them to have higher-than-normal verbal intelligence; certainly no signs of high verbal intelligence preventing autism. The specific way the model plays out may be through perceptual intelligence out of balance with verbal and rotational intelligence causing autism (3% confidence), (The post is awesome, heres a few errata, feel free to delete this after reading.) And, being a fairly intelligent person himself, he agreed that it didnt make much sense, but it didnt change that fact that he was able to overpower equally muscular people through sheer force in the ring. Genes which are helpful until you have too many of them, at which point you are screwed. I recall it because the lowest functioning children all had loser fathers. One other effect of this change in labelling, is that studies of autistics before and after the renaming cant be combined into any kind of meta-study, unless they are both much more detailed in their description of the grouyp they are measuring, and happen to target the same people. Im not especially neurologically atypical, but enough that Im not confident I might not pass down some potentially deleterious genes. It could be one of the categorization problems Scott was talking about in Against Against Autism Cures. If youre not low-functioning but dont have strong enough autistic traits to be clearly a high-functioning autistic, you dont have autism youre just a little weird? It seems that a process like this could conceptually produce an artificial bimodal distribution, even if the traits arent bimodally distributed. Four things that make one delicious combination. [Thanks to Marco DG for proofreading and offering suggestions]. . Maybe this is a tower collapse event. There are maybe as many as 1000 of them in the Western world, and none of them would want to ever hang out with us because they are smart enough to know that their time would be better spent managing their billion-dollar corporations and/or governments. It would be interesting to see more fine-grained dependency between autism and IQ, i.e. But that wouldnt be the way to bet, IMO. We dont have all those variants identified yet, but from the fraction we do know and the rate of change, they estimate that genetic potential for IQ is dropping about 0.30 point per decade 3 points per century, about a point a generation. There are ways to reduce the loop gain of the system to increase the maximum gain before feedback, but ultimately they involve careful sound engineering theres no general parameter you can turn down to fix the problem, because the primary parameter you _want_ is the same one that causes the breakdown. IQ dropping over recent decades in many developed countries, combined with lower TFR for high-IQ isnt evidence? Knowing how much of the genetic variance in intelligence (say IQ for an easy measure) is additive is probably good enough to figure out how off the purely linear assumption is. Ah, that would explain the discrepancy. Because he was as skilled as me, and had real muscles. Two of these are diagnosed as autistic, though with very different forms. The odds of him actually having Narcissistic Personality Disorder or any kind of Autistic Spectrum Disorder are close to 0. Yes. The existence of a well-defined subset of low IQ people whose relatives have higher-than-predicted IQs is a surprising finding that cuts through the measurement difficulties and suggests that this is a real phenomenon. the Council for Evidence-Based Psychiatry in the UK on the lack of validity of diagnostic categories in psychiatry http://cepuk.org/unrecognised-facts/diagnostic-system-lacks-validity/). I am one of those people who has to run emulators to appear socially normal. Thats sounds like a significant amount of epistasis in IQ, so I agree its not that weird that a few people end up very different than youd expect from a purely additive genetics + additive environment model. My wifes father (an engineer) is likely autistic. I used to live in the DC area and still work with the civil service in my current job. The Effective Altruism newsletter provides monthly updates on the highest-impact ways to do good and help others. A bit of motivation before asking a question: my boss has a daughter. If smart people are predisposed to have autistic kids (which Scott seems very confident of), another trait of smart people is that they tend to get more education than average. This is reminiscent, and logically inverted, from the much greater role of spontaneous mutations in these latter categories, particularly in genes known to have an even larger impact in cohorts ascertained for intellectual disability/developmental delay91. In the graph of relatives, are autists typically on the border or inside of high-IQ regions? There are so many ways to be weird and out of touch with the people around you, related to very different sets of issues and characteristics. You mentioned height, which I think is a good example too we have studies (possibly not good ones) showing that taller people have better outcomes, get treated nicer, are more attractive but people who get too tall have bad medical problems, shorter life expectancy. Or the dad may have left or tuned out because he couldnt handle the situation (but could have handled a socially inept kid who wont shut up about WWI airplane models). A lot of the super smart people I know also seem super interesting either being very funny, uniquely talented, or engaging. (I have predicted conversations, but only because the other person forgot we already had it. But it adds the concept of a "safe starch" - where the classic paleo diet has a zero tolerance policy toward carbohydrates, the Perfect Health Diet allows certain carbs like rice, potatoes, and lots of weird things like "taro" and "sago". This is what we find; see Table 4 here. For one, its multiple different kinds of mental tasks whose scores are then combined to get an IQ score. That seems too low, based on my interactions with her: shes not so much slow as odd, so it may very well be that the test isnt a good measure. Titrated use of alcohol in pregnancy and general precautions regarding healthy eating during pregnancy. Immune systems that greet pathogens with a really forceful response on a hair trigger. List 1 Avoids eye contact Doesn't smile Doesn't reach out to be picked up Rejects your efforts to calm, soothe, and connect Doesn't seem to notice or care when you leave them alone Cries inconsolably Doesn't coo or make sounds Heck, maybe there are two different underlying conditions here that have similar enough symptoms that we categorize them together (per Scotts observation in his The Body Keeps the Score review that we tend to categorize psychiatric disorders heavily by effect, because the cause is so murky). You don't have to be a diagnosed autist to be like that. My wife is autistic. Go up a level and you can mash a bunch of sequential notes on a piano with one left out of the middle and they can tell you the highest note, lowest note, and the one you left out. We both spent a lifetime getting scolded because we were obviously too smart for the dumb stuff we kept doing (grades and the like). Gender dysphoria. Low IQ people are more likely to end up dead or in jail, and are less likely to be in stable nuclear families. Beware Simpsons Paradox. Second, my 3rd daughters birth was challenging. Broadly, intelligence might be, say: pattern recognition, ability to readjust priors, visual imagination, factual recall, procedural memory etc. I didnt understand why you left out the actual finding, which seems to be an important fact to note. Terrifyingly competent and motivated, shockingly good with people, and with few visible mental issues. And we're taking resources from the prior group to give to the latter. This can best be understood through a tower-versus-foundation model where higher intelligence that outstrips the ability of some mysterious foundation to support it will result in autism (25% confidence), 6. The threshold is probably different for women and men. (For example, a too-big head would kill mother and baby until modern times; now it just means mom gets a C-section.). Wheat has been genetically modified recently in ways that make it much worse for you. Assortative Mating And Autism | Slate Star Codex I am simply saying that when you encounter lots of GS11+ people they are exactly like Comey. [1] I assume most such genes do something way more complicated and hard to measure, but head circumference makes a nice example trait. Its possible they just have a very good emulation that never slips even in casual situations, but at some point that basically merges with normal. These deficits are present in early childhood, typically before age three, and lead to clinically significant functional impairment. Combining information from a wide variety of studies, Gaugler et al estimate that about 52% of autism risk is attributable to ordinary familial genes, 3% to rare de novo mutations, 4% to complicated non-additive genetic interaction effects, and 41% unaccounted, which may be non-genetic factors or genetic factors we dont understand and cant measure. Honestly, your genius doesnt sound very good at digging into people. My first thought when hearing that autism intelligence data is that people are much more likely to end up with the autistic label if theyre disabled. https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/05/07/5-httlpr-a-pointed-review/, https://sci-hub.tw/10.1176/appi.ajp.2018.18070881, Arizone State University Autism symptoms reduced nearly 50% two years after fecal transplant, The Economist More evidence that autism is linked to gut bacteria, Maybe Your Zoloft Stopped Working Because A Liver Fluke Tried To Turn Your Nth-Great-Grandmother Into A Zombie, https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s40489-016-0085-x.pdf, http://cepuk.org/unrecognised-facts/diagnostic-system-lacks-validity/, https://medicine.uiowa.edu/psychiatry/content/ui-research-suggests-huntingtons-disease-gene-also-vital-human-development-and-intelligence, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749054, https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/9/8/e029040.full. 43 votes, 61 comments. If e.g. If so, wed expect a much higher rate of female-to-male transgender identity among people on the autism spectrum who, ah, lack that Y chromosome. Commentary: The autistic community is having a reckoning with ABA n=1, but it was striking to watch my very smart middle kid go from being a near-outcast in his good Catholic school to a guy with lots of friends at his magnet school. So, one can see how this would obviously lead to an increase in autoimmunity, but in one of the later chapters AEoA, Velazquez-Manoff also shows how autism (a least a lot of the time) is an inflammatory condition: for instance, autopsies uniformly showing neural inflammation, people with ASDs are more likely to develop autoimmune diseases than the general population and are more likely to have family members with autoimmune diseases, and for a few subjects treatment with immune-modulating intestinal worms providing some symptom relief even. (*) to complicate matters, in normal usage, Im autistic, but in many usages I wouldnt be described as having autism. This is a common situation, but not with many genes of small effect. I guess it depends on how you define weirdness; I define it as having interests, beliefs, or though processes that are significantly different than most people I dont think Ive encountered any extremely intelligent people for whom none of the above are the case. Several studies have shown a genetic link between autism and intelligence; genes that contribute to autism risk also contribute to high IQ. And thus a little more involvement from the microglia in utero or during early childhood might lead to a more efficient neural configuration and a higher IQ, especially if the involvement is more concentrated in the brain regions with more of an evolutionarily enforced margin toward resilience/survival rather than cognitive performance in normal humans. Agreed. The note in the second image mentions adjusting for maternal and paternal age (among other things), and it doesnt look like the adjustment makes an important difference. (And, just to acknowledge what I suspect was the subtext of this entire post, thats really bad news for people who want to get significant IQ gains from genetic engineering.). Is there precedent for this tower-versus-foundation model being useful for any other health issue, or was it just made up specifically for autism? He (I presume) seems to be a bad conversationalist, likely through lack of practice. One study found that 69% of autistic people had an IQ below 85 (the average IQ of a high school dropout). Some people worry about assortative mating in Silicon Valley: highly analytical tech workers marry other highly analytical tech workers. Indeed. a sort of arrangement where if you pick up to four of them you get enhanced intelligence, five or six and you get high-functioning intelligent autism, and seven or more and your brain crashes on boot-up and the autism stops you from functioning. Brilliant, productive people dont spend time either wishing to be normal, wishing to be different, or obsessing how they are different from normal. Theyre simply too busy getting things done for a triviality that reduces to dumb averages to matter to them. If it is, that could explain some of these results. He has the making of a superb engineer. but heres the thing, I cant come back from the store with six bags of graham crackers and confidently say alright, were gonna make a BUNCH of smores now. To really make a lot, we need all marshmallows, chocolate, AND graham crackersand adding a bunch of one factor does absolutely nothing, and may in fact hinder the whole operationsimilarly, its fallacious to suggest that because some factors dial up, they must all be good things that should be dialed up without limitthat crackling fire is a necessary component, but it doesnt need to go any higherif it does, if we have a big ole bonfire for example, the whole process actually gets harder. Suppose the only study on age-related mortality shows that people older than 30 are 1.2x more likely to die in a given year than people younger than 30, but does not give any other information. Higher IQ people have lower infant mortality rates than lower IQ people. The Western world (taken to mean Europe and the Anglosphere) comprises roughly 1/6th of the global population, which means there should be about 125,000 Westerners who are both incredibly smart and incredibly charismatic. And since mental traits like intelligence, social aptitude, and self-control are the ones most likely to be selected for in society, it makes sense that our imbalances would primarily be mental. Some of this effect is because autism is caused both by normal genes and by de novo mutations and environmental insults, and the de novo mutations and environmental insults definitely decrease intelligence. Wheat something something something autism and schizophrenia. Theyre often chatting about the latest sportsball game or what their kids are doing or their vacation plansconversations that wouldnt seem unusual anywhere in the US. I wonder what human spoken language would be like if that kind of ability were universal. Take any part away, and you lose some intellectual ability. Epistemic status: wild speculation backed up only by anecdotal evidence and theory. Her IQ has only been tested once, by a neuropsych, and came in around 90. Its not like theyll answer anybody. And it would also explain why there are many extremely intelligent people who dont have autism at all (you can build arbitrarily tall towers if your foundation is strong enough). Even if the definition is good, people who function poorly are more likely to seek out (or be coerced into) psychiatric treatment, and so are more likely to be identified. Other possible explanation(s): Some kind of anxiety about doing things wrong, combined with worrying about whether one is supposed to be able to do a thing yet.

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